tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.comments2018-10-02T09:47:38.018-07:00Mesomaniajonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-90450444926284287042018-10-02T09:47:38.018-07:002018-10-02T09:47:38.018-07:00This caption is incorrect: "New display that ...This caption is incorrect: "New display that claims these Indians are Lamanites."<br /><br />The caption should read: "New display that claims these Indians may have some Lamanite ancestors." The display is clear in its verbage: "Lamanites are AMONG the ancestors of the American Indians" (emphasis added by me). Which means that they could be anywhere from 0.01% of their ancestry to 99.9% of their ancestry. The word "among" signifies that it's one of many ancestors. rpphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12584501606760972424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-79099661381227830772017-10-05T10:15:23.108-07:002017-10-05T10:15:23.108-07:00Whenver, my spouse and I wish to go to Vietnam, th...Whenver, my spouse and I wish to go to Vietnam, the visa service that we always go to is the <a href="https://greenvisa.io/" rel="nofollow">https://greenvisa.io</a>visa service because they always deliver our visa. <br />Miahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03337558064824391603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-15030056891108042362017-05-08T15:18:02.924-07:002017-05-08T15:18:02.924-07:00As of today, he has not replied to me. I don't...As of today, he has not replied to me. I don't think he wants to change his mind about anything.<br />:)jonathan3dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-21817474710573071512017-04-21T11:20:59.413-07:002017-04-21T11:20:59.413-07:00And maybe a remedial course in BookofMormonwars.bl...And maybe a remedial course in BookofMormonwars.blogspot.com, LetterVII.com and a few other of your blogs. :)Steven Montgomeryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02291046612560917501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-21093161197942377112017-04-21T11:12:38.248-07:002017-04-21T11:12:38.248-07:00I do hope you get somewhere with this fine brother...I do hope you get somewhere with this fine brother. His presentation will do nothing but eventually cause some to stumble or even leave the Church. Obviously he needs to read Letter VII and The Lost City of Zarahemla. Steven Montgomeryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02291046612560917501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-57822615995478202582017-01-21T18:39:28.659-08:002017-01-21T18:39:28.659-08:00Which is why Letter VII needs to be even more prom...Which is why Letter VII needs to be even more promoted among Church Members. It's a way to combat "scholarly arrogance." Steven Montgomeryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02291046612560917501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-48679902649435466382016-12-06T15:51:29.715-08:002016-12-06T15:51:29.715-08:00Two points. Since you've asked this before, an...Two points. Since you've asked this before, and maybe other people haven't read my other posts, I'll restate them again.<br /><br />First, much if not most of what Joseph taught was not accompanied by an explanation of the revelation/event in which this special knowledge was imparted unambiguously. We could delete everything that's not in the standard works, I suppose (although parts of Letter I are in the PofGP and I've suggested part of Letter VII is in Joseph Smith-History). But then we don't need lesson manuals about the teachings of the Presidents of the Church or even General Conference, unless a speaker explains the revelation/event in which this special knowledge was imparted unambiguously.<br /><br />Second, Joseph and Oliver visited the records repository in the Hill Cumorah in New York, as attested by Brigham Young and others. That means they knew the Mormon 6:6 was in New York by personal experience.<br /><br />Of course, people can say this was a vision, that Joseph and Oliver were ignorant speculators who deceived the Church for over a century, etc., all to support the Mesoamerican advocates. That's why I encourage people to think for themselves. <br /><br />Read Letter VII, think of how often it was republished, and then compare it to what the Mesoamerican scholars say about it (and what they say about all the other prophets and apostles who have spoken about Cumorah in New York). The approach of Mesoamerican advocates is, "I support the prophets except when they disagree with me, at which point the prophets are speaking as men, giving their own opinions." You see this throughout their writing.<br /><br />I think most members of the Church, if they read Letter VII and make this comparison, will support what Joseph and Oliver said. But it's not a matter of majority vote, anyway. I'm fine with whatever people want to believe, just as long as they make informed choices.jonathan3dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-2044307117990285232016-12-05T12:45:47.732-08:002016-12-05T12:45:47.732-08:00Ah! that's the art from the new primary colori...Ah! that's the art from the new primary coloring book they put out a few months back. It keeps on coming. Roryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15464871210618980262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-6569377519787772922016-12-04T12:42:17.113-08:002016-12-04T12:42:17.113-08:00In your research, Jonathan, have you been able to ...In your research, Jonathan, have you been able to determine whether Joseph or Oliver was the originator? And also, the source of that knowledge/revelation?<br /><br />I'm not disputing your case, I'm just wondering how far back we can map the causal chain.<br /><br />To use your own analogy of thinking past the sale, the sale this post skips past is establishing the revelation/event in which this special knowledge was imparted unambiguously.<br /><br />Thanks.WonderBoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11805920088808750722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-21382663240570816472016-11-19T07:38:09.130-08:002016-11-19T07:38:09.130-08:00Good point, something I haven't really thought...Good point, something I haven't really thought about. But now that I recognize group think behavior among members of the "citation cartel" I can't stop thinking about it. :-)Steven Montgomeryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02291046612560917501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-31649753830731916352016-11-19T06:58:23.104-08:002016-11-19T06:58:23.104-08:00Great comment, WonderBoy. I attribute this to Meso...Great comment, WonderBoy. I attribute this to Mesomania partly for the lack of another explanation, and partly because Mesoamerican advocates have questioned these passages on the ground that the Doctrine and Covenants has not been sufficiently "proof-texted" by scholars. That's a discussion for another post someday. <br /><br />The larger point is that Mesoamerican advocates strongly argue against the "hemispheric" model that early LDS authors such as the Pratt brothers and Benjamin Winchester emphasized (and which Joseph explicitly rejected, although not strongly enough, it turns out). Joseph wrote and spoke only about the Indians in the U.S., and he told them their fathers wrote the book. When Joseph wrote in the Wentworth letter that the remnants are the Indians "in this country," Mesoamerican advocates recognize the threat to their theory so they claim he was referring to the entire hemisphere. They recognize that there is little commonality between the indigenous people in Latin America--almost exclusively Asian in origin--and the indigenous people in the Northwestern U.S. <br /><br />As far as I know, everyone agrees that ancient people migrated. And you're right that theoretically, the tribes Cowdery visited could have migrated north from Mesoamerica. But that's not what the anthropology or the DNA shows. These tribes have high concentrations of the X2 haplotype that is not found in Latin America. There is some mixture of Asian DNA brought up from Central America in the southern areas of Hopewell culture (which is what I noted in my post about the temple dedicatory prayers in Latin America), but the more north you get, the less there is. I'm not aware of any as far north as New York, for example, but maybe someone can comment on that.jonathan3dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-44435969602096699142016-11-18T13:08:19.543-08:002016-11-18T13:08:19.543-08:00I agree, it should read as the D&C indicates. ...I agree, it should read as the D&C indicates. I'm not sure it's due to "Mesomania" per se, though--although I do acknowledge Mesomania exists. <br /><br />And even if it definitely is Mesomania, I'm not sure why someone would feel the need to alter the truth as related by the caption. After all, even Mesoamericanists know that peoples migrate over time. Just because there are Lamanite descendants in NY, OH, and the midwest NOW doesn't necessarily prove that's where they were 1600-2000 years ago. <br /><br />Do Mesoamericanists make the case that cultures and peoples don't migrate and move over time? I'm not aware of any such claims. That's why I hesitate to agree that the altered caption is a manifestation of Mesomania.<br /><br />I'm inclined to think other factors are at play here, although which I can't say for sure. But I think it's a bit reactionary to attribute it to mesomania. WonderBoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11805920088808750722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-16909916450587223972016-11-17T20:45:04.658-08:002016-11-17T20:45:04.658-08:00I'm saddened by this. To be an early Church me...I'm saddened by this. To be an early Church member again! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00012746311462229830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-54011089198599071872016-11-13T20:23:10.519-08:002016-11-13T20:23:10.519-08:00Well said!Well said!jonathan3dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-67667711508760954172016-11-13T17:11:46.375-08:002016-11-13T17:11:46.375-08:00Just getting around to reading this now (for some ...Just getting around to reading this now (for some reason I had the settings for this particular blog wrong on my RSS reader). But like #littlerasco, I like your reasoning here. Kudo's. Steven Montgomeryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02291046612560917501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-43347093399794425732016-11-13T15:03:04.132-08:002016-11-13T15:03:04.132-08:00You nailed it. People are smarter than "the L...You nailed it. People are smarter than "the LDS scholars think." They are also smarter than the mass media pollsters. :-)Steven Montgomeryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02291046612560917501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-39673756349444125942016-10-28T15:21:58.063-07:002016-10-28T15:21:58.063-07:00That's a good idea. I'll put that in one o...That's a good idea. I'll put that in one of my next "how to" videos.<br /><br />:)jonathan3dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-18117555847943668922016-10-28T15:21:13.933-07:002016-10-28T15:21:13.933-07:00Hi erichard. Thanks for your comment. I've dis...Hi erichard. Thanks for your comment. I've discussed Del's observations before on the bookofmormonwars blog, but there are many new readers here, so I'll review it again.<br /><br />Basically, Del claims Oliver Cowdery was speculating, did not know what he was talking about, had no revelation, etc. Either that or he was a liar. None of these options are exactly ideal for one of the Three Witnesses. Let alone for the Assistant President of the Church and the only other witness to many of the most important foundational events of the Restoration.<br /><br />Letter VII speaks for itself. To say Oliver was speculating when he specifically wrote it was a fact makes him a liar; i.e., a fact is not speculation. To say Joseph was speculating when he had it reprinted and recorded in his own journal undermines everything else he taught. To say Joseph F. Smith was speculating when he reprinted it in the Improvement Era, or Joseph Fielding Smith was speculating both as Church Historian and a 20-year apostle, and then again 20 years later as President of the Quorum of the Twelve, is problematic. Not to mention claiming that President Marion G. Romney and Elder Mark E. Peterson were speculating in General Conference in the 1970s. So we have 140 years of a consistent position taken by the prophets and apostles, and Del and others object because of what? <br /><br />Purely to defend their pet geography theories.<br /><br />As I've always said, people are free to believe whatever they want. I've gone through Del's material and found them internally inconsistent, contradictory to what Joseph and Oliver said, and contradictory to the text. But I'm not arguing with him; I have no problem with him believing believe his theories. I have no problem with the Meso advocates believing their theories, either. <br /><br />All I ask is that people explain their views regarding Letter VII. It was ubiquitous in Joseph's day, and even made it into the official edition of the Book of Mormon from 1879 through 1920, where Cumorah was identified as a fact while other sites were clearly marked as speculative. Every Church member today should be familiar with Letter VII as a matter of Church history, if nothing else. <br /><br />FWIW, I find Letter VII consistent with the text, with everything else Joseph said, and with archaeology, anthropology, geology, and geography. Others don't, which is fine with me. <br /><br />Again, thanks for your comment and sorry to write so much but people ask me these things all the time so now I can refer them here.<br /><br />:)<br /><br />All the best.jonathan3dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-51537243451029912382016-10-28T13:47:43.540-07:002016-10-28T13:47:43.540-07:00LOVE THIS ARTICLE!!!! It really lays it out there!...LOVE THIS ARTICLE!!!! It really lays it out there!! In your first paragraph you stated, "The Church web page explains CES here." However that link explained the church's position on education, but not on the "Church Education System." I LOVED how you recaped all the Letter VII references at the bottom of the page!! I was wondering if you could also expound on the references to where Joseph Fielding Smith cited the letter in the 1930's and 50's. Thank you very much!!littlerascohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615353996674116835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-24190682833381172742016-10-27T20:12:34.628-07:002016-10-27T20:12:34.628-07:00There has been one revelation that should be consi...There has been one revelation that should be considered: "For the true Lamanite resideth only in the South, even in the land ye call South America, yea and even there are some in the land ye call Central America.<br /> Nevertheless, they are in the most part in South America, yea and they are the true descendants of My servants Laman and Lemuel, and yet a few of My faithful servant Joseph, in the which I promised that his seed would not utterly be destroyed." <br /><br />This revelation supports, but does not directly say, that the original Book of Mormon lands are in South America. <br /><br />As the times of the Gentiles completely close, and the Lord continues to identify and gather His people Israel as promised, we can be sure more revelation on the matter will come forth. <br /><br />And when the Lord cleanses His Gentile church, as promised, His church will take the side of what the Lord reveals. erichardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12279217537472159142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-71588197685282953222016-10-27T19:36:42.716-07:002016-10-27T19:36:42.716-07:00On the other hand, your concerns about Mesomania i...On the other hand, your concerns about Mesomania in the church are definitely justified. There are many many problems with the Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon, and I agree with you that it should not be pushed at the expense of other settings.erichardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12279217537472159142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2156672331917646930.post-21271597616808156962016-10-27T19:31:00.719-07:002016-10-27T19:31:00.719-07:00Letter VII is not good enough for me either. Sor...Letter VII is not good enough for me either. Sorry, but no cigar. You should consider at least reading what Del has to say about Letter VII, if you have not: http://nephicode.blogspot.com/2016/09/separating-speculation-and-opinion-from.htmlerichardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12279217537472159142noreply@blogger.com